Fabula
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light Episode 4

The Portrait’s Arrival: A King’s Displeasure and Cromwell’s Fracturing Power

In a scene crackling with political tension, Thomas Cromwell’s meticulously orchestrated marriage alliance for Henry VIII begins to unravel as the arrival of Anne of Cleves’ portrait exposes the King’s growing displeasure. The moment is a masterclass in subtext: Henry’s silence and the court’s whispered reactions speak volumes, while Cromwell’s forced optimism masks his mounting dread. Simultaneously, Stephen Gardiner and the Duke of Norfolk—Cromwell’s most ruthless rivals—seize the opportunity to undermine him, exploiting Henry’s dissatisfaction to tighten their grip on the court. The scene is a turning point: what was once a calculated maneuver to secure Cromwell’s future now becomes a ticking time bomb. His enemies’ taunts about Wolsey’s downfall and the King’s wavering loyalty force Cromwell to confront the fragility of his position. The portrait, meant to be a symbol of alliance, instead becomes a harbinger of his decline, as the court’s dynamics shift beneath him. The air is thick with unspoken threats, and Cromwell’s usual strategic brilliance is tested as he must navigate Henry’s volatile mood while fending off Gardiner’s relentless attacks. The stakes are clear: this is not just about a marriage, but about survival in a court where loyalty is fleeting and power is a knife’s edge away from ruin.

Plot Beats

The narrative micro-steps within this event

3

Following the death of Queen Jane, Thomas Cromwell is pressured by King Henry VIII's council to find him a new wife to counteract a potential alliance between the Emperor and France, placing him in a precarious position.

uncertainty to determination

Cromwell's health deteriorates, plagued by nightmares and a return of his old fever, yet he continues to serve the King, presenting the case for Anne of Cleves and attempting to manage the religious tensions within the court.

illness to determination

A letter detailing the terms of Duke Wilhelm sends Anna’s portrait to Henry as Cromwell's influence wanes while Gardiner gains favor with the King, questioning Cromwell's actions and motives.

hope to uncertainty

Who Was There

Characters present in this moment

7

Vindictive, enjoying the chance to humiliate Cromwell in front of the court

The Duke of Norfolk stands beside Gardiner, his bulk and scowl amplifying the threat. He does not need to say much—his presence alone is a reminder of the conservative faction’s power. When he speaks, it is with a growl, his words designed to wound Cromwell’s pride and remind the court of his lowborn origins. Norfolk’s attacks are blunt, but effective, playing on Henry’s insecurities and the court’s snobbery.

Goals in this moment
  • Reinforce the conservative faction’s dominance by discrediting Cromwell
  • Exploit Henry’s dissatisfaction to weaken Cromwell’s influence
Active beliefs
  • Cromwell’s power is built on sand, and this moment proves it
  • The court will always favor noble blood over lowborn ambition
Character traits
Hostile and confrontational Physically intimidating Loyal to conservative values Disdainful of Cromwell’s rise
Follow Lambeth Palace …'s journey

Disillusioned and suspicious, his pride wounded by the portrait’s failure to meet his expectations

Henry VIII sits enthroned, his massive frame slumped slightly, his leg ulcer hidden beneath rich fabrics but radiating a palpable stench of decay. His face is a mask of displeasure as he studies Anne of Cleves’ portrait, his silence more damning than any outburst. The court holds its breath, waiting for his reaction, but Henry’s gaze is distant, his thoughts unreadable. When he finally speaks, his voice is low, almost disappointed, and the weight of his words hangs in the air like a death knell for Cromwell’s plans.

Goals in this moment
  • Assert his authority by rejecting Cromwell’s proposal without outright confrontation
  • Signal to the court that his favor is not guaranteed, even for his chief minister
Active beliefs
  • Cromwell’s judgment is flawed, and this marriage may be another mistake
  • His own legacy and England’s future require a queen who meets his standards
Character traits
Volatile and unpredictable Physically and emotionally weary Theatrically silent Disappointed yet calculating
Follow Henry VIII's journey

Triumpant, relishing the chance to undermine Cromwell while appearing loyal to Henry

Stephen Gardiner leans forward, his sharp features alight with malice as he seizes the moment to strike at Cromwell. His voice drips with false concern, but his eyes gleam with triumph. He invokes Wolsey’s fall not as history, but as a prophecy, his words carefully crafted to plant doubt in Henry’s mind. The court watches, sensing blood in the water, as Gardiner positions himself as the voice of caution and tradition against Cromwell’s reformist gambles.

Goals in this moment
  • Undermine Cromwell’s credibility by associating him with Wolsey’s failures
  • Position himself as the safer, more traditional alternative to Cromwell’s reforms
Active beliefs
  • Cromwell’s downfall is inevitable, and this moment accelerates it
  • Henry’s displeasure with the portrait is an opportunity to regain lost ground
Character traits
Opportunistic and ruthless Verbally precise and cutting Triumpant in his attack Strategically patient
Follow Stephen Gardiner's journey

Feigned confidence masking deep anxiety and the creeping realization of political vulnerability

Thomas Cromwell stands rigidly before Henry VIII, clutching the portrait of Anne of Cleves as if it were a shield. His forced smile is a thin veneer over the dread coiling in his gut, his fingers tightening imperceptibly around the frame as Henry’s silence stretches. He deflects Gardiner’s barbs with calculated diplomacy, but his eyes betray a flicker of panic—this moment was meant to be his triumph, not his undoing. The court’s murmurs feel like a noose tightening around his neck, and for the first time, he senses the fragility of his position.

Goals in this moment
  • Preserve the appearance of control to maintain Henry’s favor
  • Deflect Gardiner and Norfolk’s attacks without provoking Henry’s wrath
Active beliefs
  • Henry’s displeasure is a temporary setback, not a fatal blow—yet
  • The Protestant alliance with Cleves is non-negotiable for England’s future
Character traits
Strategically calculating Anxious yet composed Defensive under pressure Diplomatically evasive
Follow Thomas Cromwell's journey
Supporting 3
Courtiers
secondary

Tense, anxious, and opportunistic—waiting to see who will emerge victorious

The court collectively holds its breath, their whispers a living thing, a serpent coiling around Cromwell. They are a chorus of judgment, their reactions amplifying Henry’s displeasure and Gardiner’s attacks. Some watch with schadenfreude, others with nervousness—no one wants to be caught in the crossfire, but all are eager to see how this plays out. The court’s tension is a physical force, pressing in on Cromwell from all sides, a reminder that his power is as fragile as the portrait in his hands.

Goals in this moment
  • Avoid being associated with Cromwell’s potential downfall
  • Position themselves to benefit from the shifting power dynamics
Active beliefs
  • Cromwell’s position is precarious, and this moment could be his undoing
  • The court must always side with the winner, whoever that may be
Character traits
Collectively opportunistic Whispering and judgmental A barometer of political tides Cautiously observant
Follow Courtiers's journey

N/A (Wolsey is deceased, but his legacy is a source of fear and tension)

Cardinal Wolsey is long dead, but his legacy haunts the room like a ghost. Gardiner and Norfolk invoke his name as a warning, a reminder of what happens to those who fall from Henry’s favor. Wolsey’s downfall is not just history—it is a cautionary tale, a specter that looms over Cromwell as he struggles to maintain his composure. The court’s murmurs about Wolsey’s corruption and Cromwell’s similarities to him are a low hum of dread, a reminder that no one is safe.

Goals in this moment
  • N/A (Wolsey’s goals are irrelevant; his legacy is being weaponized against Cromwell)
  • N/A
Active beliefs
  • N/A (Wolsey’s beliefs are not a factor; his downfall is the lesson being taught)
  • N/A
Character traits
A spectral presence A symbol of failed ambition A cautionary figure
Follow Thomas Wolsey's journey

N/A (Absent, but her representation is a source of tension)

Anne of Cleves is absent from the scene, but her portrait looms large, a silent witness to the unraveling of Cromwell’s plans. The painting, once a symbol of hope for the Protestant alliance, now hangs in the air like a curse. Her absence is palpable, her fate tied to the reactions of the men who will decide it. The court’s whispers about her appearance and heresy are a preview of the rejection she will face, and the portrait’s reception seals her doom before she even arrives.

Goals in this moment
  • N/A (Her goals are irrelevant here; she is a tool in others’ hands)
  • N/A
Active beliefs
  • N/A (Her beliefs are not a factor in this moment)
  • N/A
Character traits
Symbolic and passive A pawn in a larger game Unknowingly the catalyst for Cromwell’s decline
Follow Anne of …'s journey

Objects Involved

Significant items in this scene

1
Portrait of Anne of Cleves

The portrait of Anne of Cleves is the focal point of the scene, a silent yet devastating artifact that exposes the fragility of Cromwell’s plans. Initially intended as a diplomatic triumph—a visual promise of Anne’s suitability as Henry’s bride—it becomes the catalyst for his unraveling. Henry’s displeasure at the portrait’s depiction is the spark that ignites Gardiner and Norfolk’s attacks, turning what was meant to be a symbol of alliance into a harbinger of Cromwell’s decline. The portrait’s reception is a microcosm of the court’s shifting loyalties, and its arrival marks the beginning of the end for Cromwell’s carefully constructed marriage alliance.

Before: A carefully curated diplomatic tool, meant to secure …
After: A damning artifact, now associated with Henry’s displeasure …
Before: A carefully curated diplomatic tool, meant to secure Henry’s approval and solidify the Protestant alliance with Cleves. It is a symbol of hope, a promise of political and religious stability.
After: A damning artifact, now associated with Henry’s displeasure and the court’s whispers. It has become a symbol of Cromwell’s miscalculation, a visual reminder of his vulnerability.

Location Details

Places and their significance in this event

1
Tudor Court

The Tudor Court serves as the battleground for this political confrontation, its grand halls and presence chambers designed to amplify power and expose weakness. The space is thick with tension, the air heavy with the scent of candle wax and the unspoken judgments of the court. Henry’s throne looms like a judgment seat, and the court’s murmurs echo off the stone walls, creating a cacophony of doubt and disapproval. This is not just a room—it is a stage where Cromwell’s fate is being decided, and every whisper, every glance, is a vote in his trial by the court.

Atmosphere Tension-filled with whispered conversations, the air thick with unspoken judgment and the scent of political …
Function Battleground for political maneuvering and public confrontation
Symbolism Represents the volatile and judgmental nature of Tudor court politics, where loyalty is fleeting and …
Access Restricted to the royal court and invited nobles; outsiders are not permitted.
The grand throne room, with Henry VIII seated at its center, his leg ulcer hidden beneath rich fabrics but radiating a palpable stench of decay. Candles casting long shadows, their flickering light amplifying the court’s whispers and the tension in the air. The portrait of Anne of Cleves held aloft, its depiction now a source of displeasure rather than admiration.

Organizations Involved

Institutional presence and influence

2
Protestant Alliance of German States (Cleves)

The Protestant German Alliance, represented by Anne of Cleves and her brother Duke Wilhelm, is indirectly but critically involved in this event. The portrait’s reception is a litmus test for the alliance’s future, and Henry’s displeasure threatens to derail Cromwell’s diplomatic efforts. The alliance’s fate is tied to Anne’s acceptance, and this moment is a preview of the rejection she will face. If the marriage fails, the alliance could collapse, leaving England isolated and vulnerable to conservative and Catholic pressures.

Representation Through the portrait of Anne of Cleves, which serves as a diplomatic proxy for the …
Power Dynamics Vulnerable to Henry’s whims and the conservative faction’s opposition. The alliance’s future hinges on Cromwell’s …
Impact The alliance’s survival depends on Cromwell’s success in this moment. A failure here could lead …
Internal Dynamics The alliance is not present in the scene, but its fate is being decided by …
Secure the marriage alliance with Henry VIII to solidify Protestant ties and counter Catholic influence Avoid being rejected by Henry, which would isolate Cleves and weaken the alliance’s position Diplomatic promises (Cromwell’s assurances of Anne’s suitability and the alliance’s benefits) Symbolic representation (the portrait as a stand-in for Anne’s person and the alliance’s intentions)
Reformist Faction (Cromwell-Cranmer Alliance)

The Reformist Network, led by Thomas Cromwell and Archbishop Cranmer, is under siege in this moment. The marriage alliance with Anne of Cleves was meant to secure Protestant ties and blunt conservative opposition, but Henry’s displeasure with the portrait threatens to unravel their carefully laid plans. Gardiner and Norfolk, representing the conservative faction, seize the opportunity to undermine Cromwell’s authority, invoking Wolsey’s downfall as a warning. The Reformist Network’s future hangs in the balance, and this event is a turning point that could determine whether their vision for England’s religious and political future survives or collapses.

Representation Through Thomas Cromwell’s desperate diplomacy and the court’s whispered reactions to the Protestant alliance’s fate
Power Dynamics Under attack by the conservative faction, with Cromwell’s authority being directly challenged by Gardiner and …
Impact The Reformist Network’s ability to shape England’s future is directly tied to Cromwell’s survival in …
Internal Dynamics Cromwell is isolated in this confrontation, with no visible support from Cranmer or other reformist …
Preserve the marriage alliance with Anne of Cleves to secure Protestant ties and counter conservative influence Defend Cromwell’s position as Henry’s chief minister against Gardiner and Norfolk’s attacks Diplomatic maneuvering (Cromwell’s appeals to Henry’s strategic interests) Control of information (the portrait as a tool to secure Henry’s approval)

Narrative Connections

How this event relates to others in the story

What led here 28
Causal

"Since the portrait has been sent tensions and the power shift lead to the confrontation between Gardiner and Cromwell at Lambeth Palace/Dinner."

The Past Demands Reckoning: Jenneke’s Arrival Forces Cromwell’s Hidden Shame into the Light
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Since the portrait has been sent tensions and the power shift lead to the confrontation between Gardiner and Cromwell at Lambeth Palace/Dinner."

The Weight of the Crown: Cromwell’s Fevered Descent
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Since the portrait has been sent tensions and the power shift lead to the confrontation between Gardiner and Cromwell at Lambeth Palace/Dinner."

The Gambling Debt That Breaks the Wheel: Cromwell’s Authority on Trial
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Jane's death triggers the need for Cromwell to find a new wife for the King."

The Mural’s Curse: Cromwell’s Grief Shatters Tudor Decorum
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Jane's death triggers the need for Cromwell to find a new wife for the King."

The Ghost of Antwerp: A Daughter’s Plea and the Weight of a Father’s Lies
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Jane's death triggers the need for Cromwell to find a new wife for the King."

The Council’s Noose: Cromwell’s Public Obedience vs. Private Gambit
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Jane's death triggers the need for Cromwell to find a new wife for the King."

Cromwell’s Gambit: The Ledger That Unmasks Mary’s Defiance
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Jane's death triggers the need for Cromwell to find a new wife for the King."

The Bishop’s Gambit: Gardiner’s Shadow Re-enters the Game
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Jane's death triggers the need for Cromwell to find a new wife for the King."

The Tower’s Crucible: Cromwell’s Psychological Warfare and the Unraveling of Pole
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Jane's death triggers the need for Cromwell to find a new wife for the King."

Cromwell’s Unraveling: The Moment of Desperate Defiance
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Since the portrait has been sent tensions and the power shift lead to the confrontation between Gardiner and Cromwell at Lambeth Palace/Dinner."

The Feast of Vipers: Cromwell’s Public Unraveling at Lambeth Palace
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Character Continuity

"Relates to the introduction and later concern for Cromwell's illegitimate daughter, Jenneke."

The Unseen Wound: Jenneke’s Silent Departure
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Escalation

"Gardiner's appearance escalates tensions against Cromwell."

The Truce’s Shadow: Cromwell’s Vulnerability Exposed
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Escalation

"Gardiner's appearance escalates tensions against Cromwell."

The Court’s Silent Declaration: Gardiner’s Triumphant Return
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
NARRATIVELY_FOLLOWS

"Stephen Gardiner's return leads to the eventual conflict between Cromwell and Gardiner."

Cromwell’s Gambit: The Ledger That Unmasks Mary’s Defiance
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
NARRATIVELY_FOLLOWS

"Stephen Gardiner's return leads to the eventual conflict between Cromwell and Gardiner."

The Mural’s Curse: Cromwell’s Grief Shatters Tudor Decorum
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
NARRATIVELY_FOLLOWS

"Stephen Gardiner's return leads to the eventual conflict between Cromwell and Gardiner."

The Ghost of Antwerp: A Daughter’s Plea and the Weight of a Father’s Lies
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
NARRATIVELY_FOLLOWS

"Stephen Gardiner's return leads to the eventual conflict between Cromwell and Gardiner."

The Council’s Noose: Cromwell’s Public Obedience vs. Private Gambit
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
NARRATIVELY_FOLLOWS

"Stephen Gardiner's return leads to the eventual conflict between Cromwell and Gardiner."

The Bishop’s Gambit: Gardiner’s Shadow Re-enters the Game
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
NARRATIVELY_FOLLOWS

"Stephen Gardiner's return leads to the eventual conflict between Cromwell and Gardiner."

The Tower’s Crucible: Cromwell’s Psychological Warfare and the Unraveling of Pole
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
NARRATIVELY_FOLLOWS

"Stephen Gardiner's return leads to the eventual conflict between Cromwell and Gardiner."

Cromwell’s Unraveling: The Moment of Desperate Defiance
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Thematic Parallel medium

"Both connect to the health and wellbeing/deterioration for characters."

The Mural’s Curse: Cromwell’s Grief Shatters Tudor Decorum
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Thematic Parallel medium

"Both connect to the health and wellbeing/deterioration for characters."

The Tower’s Crucible: Cromwell’s Psychological Warfare and the Unraveling of Pole
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Thematic Parallel medium

"Both connect to the health and wellbeing/deterioration for characters."

Cromwell’s Unraveling: The Moment of Desperate Defiance
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Thematic Parallel medium

"Both connect to the health and wellbeing/deterioration for characters."

The Bishop’s Gambit: Gardiner’s Shadow Re-enters the Game
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Thematic Parallel medium

"Both connect to the health and wellbeing/deterioration for characters."

Cromwell’s Gambit: The Ledger That Unmasks Mary’s Defiance
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Thematic Parallel medium

"Both connect to the health and wellbeing/deterioration for characters."

The Ghost of Antwerp: A Daughter’s Plea and the Weight of a Father’s Lies
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Thematic Parallel medium

"Both connect to the health and wellbeing/deterioration for characters."

The Council’s Noose: Cromwell’s Public Obedience vs. Private Gambit
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
What this causes 17
Causal

"Since the portrait has been sent tensions and the power shift lead to the confrontation between Gardiner and Cromwell at Lambeth Palace/Dinner."

The Gambling Debt That Breaks the Wheel: Cromwell’s Authority on Trial
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Since the portrait has been sent tensions and the power shift lead to the confrontation between Gardiner and Cromwell at Lambeth Palace/Dinner."

The Weight of the Crown: Cromwell’s Fevered Descent
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Since the portrait has been sent tensions and the power shift lead to the confrontation between Gardiner and Cromwell at Lambeth Palace/Dinner."

The Past Demands Reckoning: Jenneke’s Arrival Forces Cromwell’s Hidden Shame into the Light
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Causal

"Since the portrait has been sent tensions and the power shift lead to the confrontation between Gardiner and Cromwell at Lambeth Palace/Dinner."

The Feast of Vipers: Cromwell’s Public Unraveling at Lambeth Palace
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
NARRATIVELY_FOLLOWS

"The accusation leads directly to the dinner devolving into further attacks."

The Poisoned Legacy: Gardiner’s Gambit and Norfolk’s Insult
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
NARRATIVELY_FOLLOWS

"The accusation leads directly to the dinner devolving into further attacks."

The Breaking Point: Cromwell’s Violence Unleashed and the Death of Diplomacy
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Symbolic Parallel

"These beats both relate to Cromwell's failing health."

Cromwell’s Storm-Battered Descent: Nature as Omen
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Temporal

"These beats both relate to dealing with Lady Mary; Act 1: Cromwell uncovers Mary's gambling and Act 2: the synopsis mentions Cromwell has to deal with her actions."

The Mural’s Curse: Cromwell’s Grief Shatters Tudor Decorum
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Temporal

"These beats both relate to dealing with Lady Mary; Act 1: Cromwell uncovers Mary's gambling and Act 2: the synopsis mentions Cromwell has to deal with her actions."

The Ghost of Antwerp: A Daughter’s Plea and the Weight of a Father’s Lies
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Temporal

"These beats both relate to dealing with Lady Mary; Act 1: Cromwell uncovers Mary's gambling and Act 2: the synopsis mentions Cromwell has to deal with her actions."

The Council’s Noose: Cromwell’s Public Obedience vs. Private Gambit
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Temporal

"These beats both relate to dealing with Lady Mary; Act 1: Cromwell uncovers Mary's gambling and Act 2: the synopsis mentions Cromwell has to deal with her actions."

Cromwell’s Gambit: The Ledger That Unmasks Mary’s Defiance
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Temporal

"These beats both relate to dealing with Lady Mary; Act 1: Cromwell uncovers Mary's gambling and Act 2: the synopsis mentions Cromwell has to deal with her actions."

The Bishop’s Gambit: Gardiner’s Shadow Re-enters the Game
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Temporal

"These beats both relate to dealing with Lady Mary; Act 1: Cromwell uncovers Mary's gambling and Act 2: the synopsis mentions Cromwell has to deal with her actions."

The Tower’s Crucible: Cromwell’s Psychological Warfare and the Unraveling of Pole
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Temporal

"These beats both relate to dealing with Lady Mary; Act 1: Cromwell uncovers Mary's gambling and Act 2: the synopsis mentions Cromwell has to deal with her actions."

Cromwell’s Unraveling: The Moment of Desperate Defiance
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Thematic Parallel

"The beats both relate to Cromwell's health."

The Heretic’s Trial: Cromwell’s Calculated Silence
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Thematic Parallel

"The beats both relate to Cromwell's health."

The Cleves Gambit Collapses: Gardiner’s Pre-Contract Trap
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …
Thematic Parallel medium

"These beats both relate to Cromwell's health or sickness."

The Fever’s Reckoning: Cromwell’s Unraveling in the Dark
S2E4 · The Mirror and the Light …

Key Dialogue

"**Gardiner:** *(smirking, to Cromwell)* 'The King is not pleased. The portrait does not... *flatter* him. One wonders if your judgment has been clouded, Cromwell. Or perhaps your influence is simply waning.' *(beat, leaning in)* 'After all, even Wolsey’s star once burned bright—until it did not.'"
"**Cromwell:** *(cold, measured, but with an edge of strain)* 'Your concern for my standing is touching, Gardiner. But the King’s needs are clear: a wife, an heir, and an alliance that strengthens England. Anne of Cleves fulfills all three. *(pauses, eyes flickering to Henry)* Unless, of course, you have a better suggestion? One that does not reek of your usual... *obstruction*?'"
"**Henry VIII:** *(to Cromwell, voice low and dangerous)* 'You promised me a queen, Cromwell. Not a... *German frump*. *(gestures dismissively at the portrait)* I will not be mocked by my own council. Fix this.' *(beat, then softer, almost pleading)* 'Or I will find someone who can.'"